US embassy cable - 05CARACAS151

C O N F I D E N T I A L SECTION 01 OF 02 CARACAS 000151 
 
SIPDIS 
 
NSC FOR CBARTON 
USCINCSO ALSO FOR POLAD 
 
E.O. 12958: DECL: 09/10/2014 
TAGS: PREL, OVIP, KDEM, VE 
SUBJECT: CODEL DODD MEETS AN EFFUSIVE CHAVEZ 
 
 
Classified By: A/DCM Abelardo A. Arias for Reason 1.4(d) 
 
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Summary 
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1. (C) Reversing course, on short notice President Hugo 
Chavez decided to meet with Senators Dodd, Chafee and Nelson 
and the Ambassador at Miraflores palace on January 10.  An 
effusive and gregarious Chavez explained his commitment to 
Venezuela's poor and said his land reform plans were only 
part of that commitment.  The Senators probed Chavez on the 
future of bilateral relations, including the possibility of a 
visit to the United States.  Chavez responded cautiously, 
saying a visit was unlikely asserting concerns about 
security.  He concluded that he was nonetheless willing to 
engage, perhaps starting with a meeting between the new U.S. 
Secretary of State and the Venezuelan Foreign Minister. 
 
SIPDIS 
Asked about  bilateral cooperation on energy, drugs and 
terrorism, Chavez said the real problem was poverty.  Chavez 
also asserted that he was not an interventionist but instead 
cooperated with other countries like Colombia and Bolivia. 
End Summary. 
 
2. (C) With two hours advance notice to the CODEL, President 
Hugo Chavez changed his mind and agreed to meet with Senators 
Christopher Dodd (D-CT), Lincoln Chafee (R-RI), William 
Nelson (D-FL) at Miraflores on January 10.  The meeting 
lasted nearly two hours.  Energy Minister Rafael Ramirez, who 
literally said nothing during the entire meeting, and senior 
members of the presidential staff, joined Chavez.  The 
Ambassador accompanied the CODEL.  There was no press. 
Chavez was gregarious and effusive throughout, and shifted to 
a first name basis with Senator Dodd by the conclusion. 
Senator Dodd spoke in Spanish.  Senators Chafee and Nelson 
spoke through an interpreter.  Chavez did most of the talking. 
 
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Bilateral Relationship and Future Cooperation:  Maybe 
--------------------------------------------- ---------- 
 
3. (C) Senator Dodd suggested it was in the interest of both 
governments to emphasize areas of positive cooperation, such 
as energy, drugs and terrorism.  What could be the basis for 
a positive bilateral agenda in the future?  Might it include 
the NGO Sumate?  Chavez agreed on the importance of 
emphasizing the positive.  The relationship had been bad in 
recent years, but he was willing to start anew.  He offered a 
long description of the tremendous gap between rich and poor 
in Venezuela.  This dichotomy, and the unwillingness of the 
traditional political parties to address it, he said, led to 
his entry into politics and the creation of the MVR movement. 
 He had an obligation to the poor and would meet his 
obligation to them at whatever cost.  The current land reform 
efforts were part of that obligation, Chavez said. 
 
4. (C) Senators Dodd and Chafee probed further on the future 
of the U.S.-Venezuela relationship.  Neither the U.S. nor 
Venezuelan foreign policy was all bad.  Was there a basis for 
progress?  Would Chavez consider an early visit to the U.S? 
If they could make the offer, would he consider meeting with 
members of the U.S. Congress, perhaps through the Senate 
Foreign Relations Committee?  Chavez responded cautiously on 
the idea of a U.S. visit.  His personal security was the 
issue, he said.  He was not convinced of his security in the 
U.S., Chavez asserted, particularly in light of the fact that 
some members of his security detail were not allowed visas 
for the U.S.  (Note:  Chavez was presumably referring to the 
chief of his security team who participated in his 1992 coup 
attempt and is ineligible for a U.S. visas for that and other 
reasons.)  Chavez said there were Venezuelans in the U.S. who 
called for his murder on public radio, others who engaged 
with paramilitary organizations to plan his overthrow, and 
former Venezuelan military officers who attempted to blow up 
foreign embassies in Caracas.  How would we like it if such 
individuals, sought by the USG, were allowed to live in 
Venezuela?  There was no doubt in his mind, Chavez said, that 
some elements of the USG were behind the April 2002 coup 
attempt against him.  All that said, Chavez asserted that he 
is still willing to engage in a new bilateral relationship. 
Perhaps an early meeting between the new Secretary of State 
and Foreign Minister Ali Rodriguez was the way to start, he 
suggested. 
 
--------------------------------------------- -- 
Helping on Terrorism, but Poverty is the Issue 
--------------------------------------------- -- 
 
5. (C) Senator Nelson noted that the Embassy felt we were not 
getting all the cooperation we could from GOV on terrorism. 
Was there more we could do on this front?  Chavez suggested 
that the real issue was not terrorism, but the root of all 
terrorism ) poverty.  Until we solved global poverty, we 
would not solve global terrorism.  However, he agreed that 
all governments had to join in combating terrorism, and 
Venezuela was cooperating.  Chavez told the Senators that 
given his suspicions of USG involvement in the April 2002 
coup attempt, he was very suspicious of cooperating with the 
CIA.  He said he had, however, worked with the Colombian 
government on terrorism and security cases.  He asserted that 
he is willing to join a political effort to negotiate peace 
in Colombia, should President Uribe ask him.  Chavez said he 
was cooperating with all Latin American governments in their 
counter-terrorism efforts. 
 
--------------------------------------------- - 
Chavez the Anti-American vs. Chavez the Uniter 
--------------------------------------------- - 
 
6. (C) Senator Chafee noted that successful U.S. political 
candidates tried to be uniters, not dividers.  Chavez 
presided over a badly polarized country, Chafee said, and we 
could understand how he believes an anti-U.S. line helps him 
in the short term politically, but could he envision a more 
positive approach to the U.S.?  Chavez asserted that he is 
not anti-American.  He wants to unite, not divide, he told 
the Senators.  After the August 15 recall referendum, he 
said, he refrained from anti-U.S. rhetoric, but the USG did 
not.  He knows that not all the American people agree with 
U.S. foreign policy.  The USG accuses him of intervention in 
the internal affairs of neighboring countries, but it is not 
so.  He has talked to Evo Morales in Bolivia, but only at 
President Mesa's request, to convince Morales to back off 
violent protests on the natural gas issue.  He has talked to 
the FARC and ELN in the past, but only at the invitation of 
former Colombian President Pastrana.  Some have suggested 
that he supports the Peruvian extremists who rebelled 
recently against President Toledo, but he has never had any 
contact with them.  However, Chavez told the Senators, he 
will express his regional views.  For example, he said, he 
believes the USG is wrong on Haiti: There is no long term 
solution that does not involve Aristide in some way. 
 
-------------------------------- 
Time to Invite the Peace Corps? 
-------------------------------- 
 
7. (C) Senator Dodd suggested that the Peace Corps has served 
in the past to bring societies together, to educate in both 
the U.S. and Latin America, and to assist poor communities in 
essential areas such as health and education.  Dodd noted 
that he, himself, served in the Peace Corps in the Dominican 
Republic.  Would Chavez be willing to invite the Peace Corps 
to Venezuela?  Chavez responded elliptically, saying he liked 
the idea of more people-to-people contact.  Perhaps the 
governments of Latin America should consider a regional 
effort to fight poverty that would include the Peace Corps, 
he suggested.  Ambassador noted that many Latin American 
countries already had a Peace Corps presence.  Chavez 
reiterated that he did not dislike the American people.  He 
has friends in the U.S., including a nephew, Antonio, who 
lives in the U.S.  He said he likes Congressman Cass 
Ballenger, and had enjoyed his contact with the people of 
Hickory, NC while visiting the congressman.  But if the 
people of Hickory, NC had the same degree of poverty as 
Venezuela, he claimed, they would have the same social, 
economic and political problems as well.  Calling poverty the 
core issue, Chavez said he hoped the U.S. would join an 
effort to cancel the debt of all the world's poorest nations. 
 
8. (U) CODEL Dodd did not have the opportunity to clear this 
message before its departure. 
McFarland