US embassy cable - 03HOCHIMINHCITY1087

UNCLAS SECTION 01 OF 03 HO CHI MINH CITY 001087 
 
SIPDIS 
 
SENSITIVE 
 
DEPARTMENT FOR EAP/BCLTV, DRL/IRF 
 
E. O. 12958: N/A 
TAGS: PHUM, PGOV, PREL, SOCI, KIRF, VM, RELFREE, HUMANR 
SUBJECT: AMBASSADOR HANFORD CALLS ON LOCAL OFFICIALS, LEGAL 
PROTESTANT CHURCH IN HCMC 
 
REF:  A) HCMC 0770  B) HCMC 0710  C) HCMC 0766  D) HCMC 0933  E) 
HCMC 1009  F) HCMC 0993 
 
1. (SBU) Summary:  In an October 18 meeting with Ambassador at 
Large for International Religious Freedom John Hanford, three 
leaders of the GVN-recognized Southern Evangelical Church of 
Vietnam (SECV) urged continued, focused USG pressure on the GVN to 
relax restrictions on unregistered house churches and pastors.  At 
the same time, they cautioned that designation of Vietnam as a 
Country of Particular Concern (CPC) might prove counterproductive, 
urging that the GVN be given more time to improve its record.  The 
SECV is the only legal Protestant church organization in southern 
Vietnam.  These leaders said their current priorities were to 
reopen closed churches, officially ordain greater numbers of 
practicing pastors (with more freedom to assign them), open a 
bible school in the Central Highlands, and obtain more space for 
the HCMC seminary, which just opened in February 2003.  Ambassador 
Hanford met the following day with HCMC Committee for Religious 
Affairs (CRA) chairman Nguyen Ngoc San, who dismissed recent 
allegations that the government was targeting unregistered 
Protestant house churches in the city. 
 
SECV:  We Need More Pastors, Property, and Permission to Worship 
--------------------------------------------- ------------------- 
2. (SBU) The SECV leaders told Ambassador Hanford they had 
recently given the GVN a list of 214 confiscated properties that 
they wanted returned.  They said they would be happy to take new 
properties in exchange for old properties that were now beyond 
their use.  Ideally, they hoped to get back the old Protestant 
seminary in Nha Trang, which was confiscated by the GVN in 1976. 
The SECV representatives asked Ambassador Hanford to pressure the 
GVN on this specific point.  As an alternative, they mentioned a 
seven-hectare property (10 times the size of the current space 
they currently share with the SECV church and offices) that they 
already own and could build on immediately, without any need for 
outside funding.  The SECV leaders admitted that they had 
compromised in their haste to make a deal to open the seminary in 
HCMC, without waiting for the right conditions.  They thought the 
GVN probably assumed the SECV would forget all about the old Nha 
Trang property once the new seminary opened, but the SECV has not. 
 
3. (SBU) The SECV leaders described a very mixed picture for 
Protestant worship in Vietnam.  While there is generally more 
freedom to worship in urban areas, the situation in the provinces 
can often depend much more on local authorities than on central 
policies.  In the Northwest highlands, they noted, some pastors 
are not allowed to be ordained because they let ethnic minorities 
worship in their house churches.  They also reported stories of 
forced renunciations (including some at gunpoint), beatings, and 
soldiers moving into homes, but it was unclear how they obtained 
this information from the North.  The SECV church leaders said it 
was "rare" to have "terrible things" like that happen in the 
South.  Still, they complained that many of the 755 pastors who 
had trained "underground" had not been ordained in the South, 
despite having been approved by the SECV and the Committee for 
Religious Affairs at the central level.  They blamed delays on the 
provinces, citing the old Vietnamese proverb that, "The authority 
of the Emperor stops at the village gate."  One leader later 
added, "Maybe the GVN is happy to turn a blind eye to the excesses 
of the provinces."  Another said, "The GVN has the power to make 
the provinces obey."  Without providing specifics, the SECV 
representatives noted that Protestants were discriminated against 
in jobs, health care, and education. 
 
4. (SBU) The SECV leaders described a legal Protestant church 
which is more and more willing to challenge the GVN on issues that 
matter, but still reluctant to cross an invisible line.  They said 
the GVN had changed its attitude a bit after SECV Acting President 
Duong Thanh sent a letter to top government and Communist Party 
officials last year urging them to relax restrictions on 
Protestant worship in the Central Highlands.  The government had 
started to make some concessions in words, but had not yet 
followed through.  One example the SECV representatives gave was 
GVN agreement to allow 213 villages in Dak Lak Province to have 
their own churches, and to allow "branch" churches outside those 
villages to operate freely pending their own recognition.  The 
SECV leaders are also relying on government promises that the 
Baptists, Seventh Day Adventists, and WEC (Worldwide Evangelism 
Crusade) would soon be allowed to affiliate with the SECV and 
register legal churches.  They emphasized the need to prioritize 
and focus on specific issues in dealing with the GVN. 
 
5. (SBU) All three SECV leaders agreed that designating Vietnam a 
CPC could potentially anger the GVN , maybe even leading to the 
kind of religious persecution that existed 10 years ago.  They 
also cautioned that economic sanctions hurt everyone, including 
Protestants.  ("When the economy is strong, everyone's lives are 
better.")  They recommended that the USG clearly define priorities 
and come back often to measure progress.  According to them, 
setting deadlines is a useful tool, but not if they forced the 
U.S. to actually designate Vietnam as a CPC.  The SECV leaders 
urged Ambassador Hanford to devise a "pending" CPC list in order 
"to threaten" the GVN.  Ambassador Hanford reminded the SECV Board 
members that he had already set a six-month deadline back in 
November 2002 for progress on the release of religious prisoners, 
the opening of closed churches, and new church registration. 
Unlike many other violations of religious freedom in Vietnam, 
these sorts of restrictive actions did not leave much room for 
flexibility in avoiding CPC designation.  The SECV leaders called 
on the U.S. to continue applying constant, steady pressure on the 
GVN, but to be careful to "avoid the impression that (you are) 
working in concert with the SECV."  In the end, however, at least 
two of the three leaders agreed with Ambassador Hanford's proposal 
that he give the GVN a second chance, but indicate it was likely 
Vietnam would be designated if there were not significant 
improvement within a short period of time, e.g., about six months. 
 
CRA:  Rules are Rules 
--------------------- 
6. (SBU) Meeting on Sunday, October 19, with Mr. Nguyen Ngoc San, 
chairman of the HCMC Committee for Religious Affairs, Ambassador 
Hanford stressed that he was here to find a way -- for the good of 
the bilateral relationship -- to avoid having to designate Vietnam 
as a CPC.  Mr. San responded with the usual figures on the growth 
of religious worship in HCMC, and the official policy line that 
everyone is free to worship on their own (ref A).  He described 
his role as one of facilitating religious practice, while "helping 
government officials in the city carry out their duties." 
Ambassador Hanford assured Mr. San that HCMC has a better 
reputation for religious freedom than elsewhere in Vietnam, which 
made more troubling the occasional reports of disruption of 
religious services, confiscation of religious materials, and 
imposition of fines for religious activities.  Mr. San noted that 
there had been dramatic increases in the frequency of travel by 
religious leaders, with some traveling six to seven times per 
year, as well as in the number of religious publications approved 
by the CRA. 
 
7. (SBU) Discussing three recent cases affecting Protestant house 
churches in the city which have garnered attention overseas, CRA 
chairman San justified government actions which were in accordance 
with existing administrative regulations, and faulted the 
congregations instead.  In the case of the Thu Thiem church in 
District 2 (ref B), he noted, the municipal government had allowed 
the church to stand, even though it was constructed illegally 
without a permit.  For the Full Gospel Assembly Church in District 
11 (ref C), he accused church members of having organized a prayer 
service without permission.  The house church in Binh Khanh, Can 
Gio (ref D) was also illegally constructed, he said.  It was torn 
down as part of a wider move to "restore public order" to 
residential construction (frequently done without building 
permits), and was done only after giving adequate notice. 
Ambassador Hanford reminded the CRA chairman of the importance of 
allowing even those denominations who do not wish to register to 
worship freely.  Mr. San reiterated GVN policy that religion 
should be practiced only in appropriately designated houses of 
worship or at home.  But he pointed to support for several 
Protestant denominations that have yet to be approved for 
registration, such as the Baptists and Seventh Day Adventists, as 
proof of the government's flexibility.  He also presented the 
(somewhat novel) argument that it was necessary to regulate the 
many Protestant denominations in order to avoid traffic congestion 
and noise pollution.  He assured Ambassador Hanford that HCMC 
would soon see more religious services in foreign languages to 
accommodate the many expatriates in the city. 
 
8. (SBU) Mr. San told Ambassador Hanford the GVN was eager to 
facilitate the training needs of all religions in order to ensure 
quality leaders.  Toward that end, he was supportive of efforts to 
expand the cramped facilities of the new SECV seminary.  He also 
expressed support for more one-month basic training courses, 
similar to those that had been conducted since 1993, eight years 
before the GVN officially recognized the SECV.  Mr. San indicated 
there might be some movement toward opening a long awaited seventh 
Catholic seminary, but thought it preferable to utilize the former 
seminary property at 6 bis Ton Duc Thang (confiscated by the GVN 
in 1975), rather than locate new premises in Dong Nai Province. 
He claimed to be unaware of any government efforts to block the 
ordination of SECV pastors, saying he had just received a list of 
ten and approved them all.  The CRA's only concern, he claimed, 
was for none of the candidates to have a criminal record.  He also 
denied knowledge of any restrictions on the assignment of SECV 
pastors, outside of the usual administrative requirements for 
changing one's household registration. 
 
9. (SBU) Responding to a question on confiscated properties, the 
CRA chairman  observed that properties formerly operated as 
hospitals and schools by various religious groups would continue 
to be utilized by the GVN for those same functions, but for the 
welfare of everyone.  For other types of buildings, such as 
churches and offices, GVN policy was to return the property, pay 
cash compensation, or provide property of equivalent value.  He 
said only four such properties remained in government hands: 6 bis 
Ton Duc Thang, 171 Ly Thuc Thang, 43 Nguyen Thang, and 320 Le Van 
Sy.  Asked about the former Protestant church across the street 
from the Consulate at 2 bis Le Duan (ref E), he said he was 
unaware of a confiscated property at that address, but would check 
into it.  He declined to comment officially on the return of the 
seminary in Nha Trang, as it lies geographically outside the 
borders of his jurisdiction, but he seemed certain it would be 
returned one day soon, now that the GVN had recognized the SECV. 
 
10. (SBU) Mr. San used the same technique to deflect concerns over 
recent government action (ref F) against leaders of the banned 
Unified Buddhist Church of Vietnam (UBCV).  He pointed out that 
since the UBCV was not itself a legal organization, it was not 
permissible to organize religious or organizational activities 
under that name.  When the leaders of the outlawed group were 
found to be in possession of "state secrets" following their 
illegal organizational meeting in Quy Nhon, the GVN had no choice 
but to "administratively detain" those involved.  Oddly enough, he 
said that only Thich Tue Sy, Thich Thanh Huyen, and Thich Nguyen 
Ly had been administratively detained in HCMC, pending further 
investigation, while UBCV Deputy Thich Quang Do was not.  Asked if 
USG officials could meet with Thich Quang Do, however, he advised 
that Thich Quang Do was still under investigation and hoped the 
USG would be patient during this "sensitive time."  He promised to 
"create favorable conditions" for such a visit as soon as 
practicable. 
 
11.  (U)  Ambassador Hanford did not have a chance to clear this 
cable before his departure. 
 
YAMAUCHI